Is ISM just stupid ? by LSM 8:15pm Sat Aug 2 '03 First violence, later negotiation ? print article This line from ISM report really made me laugh: "After the situation had become calmer, internationals tried to negotiate with the military on behalf of the Palestinians " Calmer = as in they stopped tearing the fence and throuw rocks at the soldiers. The ISM know that the army promised that the gate will be open when farmers need to get to their olive groves and access will be permit based. (olive harvest is in October not August) The ISM actions are not helping the farmers they just hurt them. add your comments

LSM is Stupid by ISMer 8:47pm Sat Aug 2 '03 print comment I am almost certain from my visits their that the land in Deir Laghsun that farmers are being prevented from reaching is not olive groves. It is for vegetables. In any case, even if it was olive groves, farmers need to reach olive groves year round for maintenance work, not just at harvets time. And in all these cases, regardless, Palestinian farmers have a legal right to reach and work their land. It amazes me how people who lack any understanding of the situation are so willing to make comments on it as if they do (for example, this continual and strange assertion about the olive harvest). It also amazes me that people can be so willing to decide that they can arbitrarily limit Palestinians right to reach their own land. It is exactly this type of blatant disregard for basic human rights that has allowed Israeli to go on with occupation and land left for 36 years. And we should not be surprised that this disregard for basic human rights fuels Palestinian anger. There is absolutely no explanation for why the Israeli government did not put then Wall on the Green Line at Deir Laghsun, other than land and water theft. Next time you might consider writing about subjects you know something about. add your comments

Limits ? Rights ? by LSM 9:20pm Sat Aug 2 '03 print comment Sorry. It was olive groves in Anin. Farmers can access thier land. The Israeli army let's those with permits to go through. You may be surprised but jews have rights too. Right to live. If there were no suicide bombers there was no fence. Israel did not built this fence in 67 or 1970 or 1980 or in 1985 or in 1987 or in 1994. It built in in 2002/3 . You know why - don't you ? or you just play stupid. add your comments

ISMer - answer the question by LSM 9:22pm Sat Aug 2 '03 print comment If they wanted to negotiate - why start up with violence ? It is media attention that you want. Not negotiation, not help to farmers. You want to bad mouth Israeli thinking that this is how you will get rid of the Jewish homeland. And for that tyou are stupid. add your comments

More Stupdity by ISMer 9:30pm Sat Aug 2 '03 print comment Furthermore, all ISM marches are planned as completely peaceful. If some Palestinians began throwing rocks, I am certain this was in conflict with the Palestinian and international leaders' wishes, plans and instructions. What I have experienced on a few other occasions is that Israeli soldiers unleash sound bombs, tear gas and rubber-coated bullets into the crowd, and then some Palestinian youths respond with rocks. When this happens, it is in conflict with the instructions of the Palestinian and international leadership, and we make every effort to stop it. Even though the Israeli military attempts to provoke rock throwing with violence, ISM attempts to maintain a non-violent stance. Finally, tearing down an illegitimate Wall that is preventing people from accessing their own private property is considered non-violent civil disobedience in the traditions of Ghandi and Martin Luther King. It does not harm to people or any living thing. There was a very interesting exchange on this topic on this page a few days ago that LSM would benefit from reading. LSM, if the Wall was on the Green Line, you know what ? Though many Palestinians and Israelis would be unhappy, all this would not be happening. So the problem is not the Palestinians or ISM, and attempts at peaceful marches, the problem lies with continued efforts at land theft and disregard for basic human rights by the Israeli government and people. add your comments

No LSM by ISMer 9:39pm Sat Aug 2 '03 print comment You seem to be referring to events yesterday in Deir Laghsun where some rocks were thrown. There have been no press reports of rock throwing in Anin. Whether olive groves or vegetables, in neither place is there any excuse for not putting the Wall on the Green Line. Why don't you address that issue ? In both Deir Laghsun and Anin farmers are being prevented from passing through gates to access their land. And this is what is occurring throughout the West Bank. It's a nice theoretical and PR statement that farmers will pass through the gates to reach their land that you can content yorself from far away, but we all knew that gates were likely to pose many problems, and now farmers are experiencing that they are not allowed through the gates to their land. It always sounds so nice, legal and justified, but on the ground you find it is anything but that. LSM, the gate idea make for nice PR, but the gates are not functioning. So your argument is invalid. add your comments

Yes. Move it the green line by LSM 9:40pm Sat Aug 2 '03 print comment I fully support moving the fence to the green line. The fence should not be where it is now. But whatI question is the ISM tactics. The ISM encourage violent action instead of negotiation. The ISM does not encourgae peace by not recognizing Israel right to exist. The ISM objcet having ANY fence since having a fence define a border and having a boder define two states and it is the two states solution that ISM (as well as Hamams, Jihad, Kach and other fasict organization) object too. add your comments

Non-violence by ISMer 10:34pm Sat Aug 2 '03 print comment LSM, You've got a few issues confused. ISM is continually negotiating. However, when soldiers refuse peoples' right to reach their land after repeated negotiations, we attempt to continue with non-violent action and seize that right. If you read the press statements carefully about places like Anin and Deir Laghsun you will find that Palestinians and ISMers attempted discussion with soldiers many times, but with no success. The farmers were not allowed access to their land over long periods of time. At that point a larger peaceful demonstrations were held. This is how the site for a march is typically chosen. Farmers request that ISM join them because they have tried neogotiation many times and it has failed. ISM does not push communities to do these things because the communities have to live with the consequences, and they know that. The farmers decide to do this when they have reached the point of giving up on all other alternatives. So you have things backwards. Negotiations usually come before a peaceful march. Also, typically during the marches there are opportunities that are taken to negotiate with the soldiers. You are imagining scenarios with no understanding of what is happening on the ground. Far more bizarre is your comparison of ISM with Kach, Hamas, etc.. Yes, I, like many Palestinians and Israelis want no Wall. I believe that the issues can be resolved through good faith negotiation and that a Wall is a failure and not necessary. I would rather see the Wall torn down through a massive peaceful movement rejecting Walls, occupation and violence and choosing common humanity. But I agree with what many others have said on this issue, if there is no choice but to have a Wall, it must be on the Green Line, or if Israel is building it unilaterally, on the Israeli side. Again, the cause of the growing mobilization of the Wall is its LOCATION, LOCATION, LOCATION .. The Wall is being used as yet another excuse to seize more Palestinian land. This is why so many people around the world are rallying to the issue, and this movement is only going to grow. Get that into your collective heads, and do something about it if you object to the location. ISM supports the implementation of all relevant UN resolutions for the resolution of the conflict. We don't take a position on whether that need be through a single state or two states, Israel and Palestine. That is for the parties to decide in accordance with international law. What is important to us is that, whether the outcome is one state or two states, that all citizen's human rights be respected: Jewish, Arab, Muslim, Christian, etc., ending dominance and privelege. add your comments

ISM message, for PR purposes by Slamdan 11:01pm Sat Aug 2 '03 print comment From the mouths of the ISM: "We don't take a position on whether that need be through a single state or two states, Israel and Palestine. That is for the parties to decide in accordance with international law. What is important to us is that, whether the outcome is one state or two states, that all citizen's human rights be respected: Jewish, Arab, Muslim, Christian, etc., ending dominance and privelege." - Sure, as long as it is one Arab state. "All ISM marches are planned as completely peaceful. If some Palestinians began throwing rocks, I am certain this was in conflict with the Palestinian and international leaders' wishes, plans and instructions." - Nice PR, but it doesn't match the facts on the ground. "When this happens, it is in conflict with the instructions of the Palestinian and international leadership, and we make every effort to stop it." - Yeah the next time will be the first. add your comments

Nice BS propeganda by LSM 11:29pm Sat Aug 2 '03 print comment I happend to know the Israeli brigadir comander in the Anin Area. He was full of guilt because the child that was killed in Barta (accidently) was killed by someone from his brigade. He has been - directly and via the DCO - with constant negotiation with the people of Anin. He had told tham that list are being drawn of who owns the land and that they will be allowed to pass come olive harvest time. The farmers said that they need time BEFORE the olive harvest so that they can clear the brush under the tree PRIOR to the harvest. The IDF said fine, start working near Anin and by August you will get access via the gate. We all know what took place during the demo. The ISM (and a group of Israeli anarchist) has aproched the fence and tried to dimentle it. This was after repeated calls by the military that the area is closed military zone. It was not the farmers who broke through the fence it was ISM. To sum up: Cut the BS trouble maker go back to where you came from. If you would care about peace you would put the same amount of energy you put on few olive trees into stopping suicide bombers. Did ISM ever rode a a bus in Israel in a "NON_VIOLENT DIRECT ACTION" carrying a sign in Arabic: " An international supporter of Palestine is on this bus - do not detinate your explosive here" You know the answer is No. add your comments

Speaking from Experience on the Ground by ISMer 11:31pm Sat Aug 2 '03 print comment Sorry but.. I'm writing above about my personal experience in marches on the ground in the West Bank where these types of things have happened. So I think I know what happens on the ground and how we all respond a bit better than you... Slamdan ? From what deep expereince and knowledge do you base your knowledge of what ISM does on the ground ? add your comments

It is the ommisions by LSM 11:47pm Sat Aug 2 '03 print comment It is what the ISM does not say and does not do. You see, you can not be part of a non-violent movment that does everything against violence from one side but does NOTHING against violence from it's own side. This is not non violence. This is the non-violence camoflage to what is other wise a very bloody campign to get rid of Israel. As I told you I have very direct information and background on what the IDF tried to negotiate with the Anin farmers. Let us wait for 2-3 weeks and see: Is it the ISM violent action that caused the gate to be open - no it is now closed. Is it the IDF promise to Anin farmers that the gate will be open before the olive harvest ? --------------------------------- Amother (painfull) example is Rachel Corie. Did ISM i any of their reports ever mentioned the fact that raffah homes are controlled by 2 groups of local warlords who are ingage in an explosive smuggling operation ? No of course they did not. Let me ask you a simple question: Without agreeing to what the IDF did in raffah to stop the explosive smuggling to you from your "knowledge from the ground" acknoldge that there is a pretty large scale explosive smuggling operation under the border in Raffah ? This is a good test case if you are really on the ground or flying up high in lala land where all the palestinians are white as snow and all the Israelis are sharon-like devils. add your comments

More on Anin by ISMer 12:00am Sun Aug 3 '03 print comment LSM, you are right that foreigners and Israelis tried to tear down the fenceat Anin. But if they did that without the encouragement of the community of Anin, they would have violated the principles on which ISM functions and makes decisions. We all know that Palestinians need to make these decisions because they live with the consquences not us. I expect they did it with Anin's agreement and encouragement. Its all very nice to say that lists are being drawn up so that people will access their land in August and for the olive harvest. Clearly, the community of Anin was frustrated with the process, which is why they asked for the help of ISM and Israelis to make their point. Sorry LSM, but worldwide experience shows that there is no such thing as a humane occupation, and there is no way to humanely enclose people in pens, shutting them off from their land. Palestinians may not always express this anger and frustration to Israeli soldiers, because they feel they can't. But they hate applying for permits for everyhting that they do, and they now hate applying for permits to reach their own land, and having Israeli soldiers make decisions about their lives. And the Israeli soldiers add to this by abusing these theoretically legal and humane systems that you all believe are being implemented, and the soldiers abuse the Palestinians. Occupation has never worked and it will never work. You seem to have lost track of your previous point that the Wall should not be on Palestinian land, and are now back to defending an absurd Gate system. You have developed wonderful systems of denial to avoid confronting what your occupation does and has been doing for the last 36 years to other human beings. add your comments

Let me be as consistent as I can by LSM 12:16am Sun Aug 3 '03 print comment I am not defending the gate system. I think it is a bad idea. I think the whole occupation is a VERY bad idea (for Palestinians but also for Israel) Clearly, the fence need to be on the green-line. Clearly, the border between israel and Palestine needs to be on the green-line. What I am questioning is the ISM tactics. If the ISM got any "Local aproval" this must have been from the anti-hudna PFLP . There are those, within Palestinian society who are intersted in provokation to break up the Hudna. The PFLP is one of them. You are evading many of the issues I raised. Go back, read adress the issues. Otherwise there is no point in semi-dialogue. Answer the questions about: 1. Why ISMers do not ride buses in israel 2. Why ISM does not acll to stop palestinian violence (which is still going on albeit in small doses) 3. Why ISM never acknoledge what really goes on in raffah ? what is your personal knowldge of it ? add your comments

Rafah by ISMer 12:20am Sun Aug 3 '03 print comment LSM, you've blown it here. Everyone knows and acknowledges that there are tunnels in Rafah through which arms, cigarettes, consumer goods and drugs are smuggled. What many people don't know is that punitive restrictions on border trade imposed by the Israeli authorities in Rafha, Karni, etc. have led to an even greater incentive to dig tunnels, more for consumer goods than for weapons. So by making it impossible for Gazans to trade with Egypt, Israeli policies then encourage the digging of tunnels, even as the Israeli military tries to shut them down. What a paradox of punitive policies ! There are tunnels, but there were no tunnels in the home Rachel Corrie was defending, and ISM avoided defending homes where there are tunnels. Rachel Corrie was in front of the home of a Palestinian pharmacist with many children. ISM knew the family very well. Most observers agree that there are only tunnels in a tiny percentage of the more than 600 homes that the Israeli Army has demolished in Rafah. This also corresponds with my experience. As B'Tselem says, Israel is obligated to find ways to defend itself that result in less destruction to innocent civilians than massive, indiscriminate home demolition in Rafah. It is impossible for me to believe that there are no more effective and more humane ways to deal with weapons smuggling than the brutal policy of destroying every home in Rafah. And lets remember who Israel is expending all this energy and effort and destructive power "defending" anyway - 6,000 settlers who, along with the military control 40% of the Gaza Strip (of course, Gaza's best land), while 1.2 million Palestinians live on the remaining 60%. If there were no settlements in Gaza, what would Israel have to "defend" it in this manner ? These are losing arguments for you LSM, because, with the Wall, Rafah home demolition and other issues ISM focuses on, it always comes back to you having to justify military occupation, settlement and land theft, all of which is indefensible. add your comments

Last words to ISMer by LSM 12:20am Sun Aug 3 '03 print comment As a member of the Israeli left that for long time tried to influance public opinion in Israel to end the occupation let me tell you that nither Palestinian terror nor ISM bad-mouthing of Israel help move Israeli public opinion. I am sure that there few extremist in Israel that would argue that I am wrong but I have no intention to debate it. איש באמונתו יחיה add your comments

I never justified the occupation by LSM 12:25am Sun Aug 3 '03 print comment Thank you for acknoledging what we all know: There are explosive smuggling tunnels in Raffah. Did ISM member Kristen Ess ever reported it ? No she just kept saying: "Israel did this and that" Did ISM Adam Shapiro was correct in saying: Israel will use the war on Iraq to Ethnicaly CLEANSE the palestinian to Jordan ? Clearly the ISM is doing propeganda. Your argument that Israel is the cause for cigareete smuggling and such smuggling is enabling exlosive smuggling show to what crocked thinking you will go to balme everything on Israel. Good night. add your comments

Last Points by ISMer 12:57am Sun Aug 3 '03 print comment Glad you are against: occupation, the Wall, it's location, etc.. I hope we can add indiscriminate home demolition to that list. A serious economic study in Rafah would show I'm right about punitive border trade restrictions creating more incentives for digging tunnels. As for riding the buses... the argument is this: the root of the conflict is occupation. Ending occupation will end violence, not a few foreigners lecturing Palestinians, or riding buses. We are working to address the root cause and help bring about an end to occupation, which we believe will bring peace and justice for Israelis and Palestinians. Israel already has the fifth most powerful army in the world to defend itself and to use offensively. Israeli soldiers are everywhere. Palestinians are largely a civilian population with no means of defense, few weapons, no army, etc., and little ability for civilians to carry on their lives in the face of the Israeli army. So where would you judge that our little group of non-violent civilians be most effective ? We are working to make non-violence effective so that it will be a viable option and more Palestinians will see a reason to choose it. Israelis should applaud that rather than trying to crush non-violence. Non-violent strategies have always been about choosing key issues that symbolize oppression and confronting them head on, in a peaceful, but determined manner. That is what ISM is doing, and it can be provocative. Read Ghandi, read King. Israeli soldiers choose whether they will respond to nonviolent acts against oppresive systems like the Wall in a humane manner or a brutal manner. Usually they choose to respond with force. This is their decision, and they get into the news when they choose this way. If the soldiers instead chose to respond in a humane manner, it wouldn't make the news. Yes, news coverage on the occupation, the Wall, etc., is important, because in many places, particularly the US, people are ignorant of all that, and only know about suicide bombings. So if people learn more about what is really happening in the West Bank and Gaza Strip through ISM and gain a more complete view of realities in Israel and Palestine thanks to ISM, that is a positive thing. With more knowledge they then have a better basis for making their own personal decisions about the role they should be playing and their countries should be playing. add your comments

Root cause of conflict by LSM 5:32am Sun Aug 3 '03 print comment This conflict existed long before the 67 occupation. Root cause is that two national movements want the same land. There are those, in each side, who are willing to compromise. There are extremists, on both sides, who rather fight a "winner takes all" war until the other side disappears. Part of this war is faught with violence, parts of it is faught with propaganda. All I said above is true to both sides. As for ISM - it choose to be part of one side propaganda campaign to help those extremists in the Palestinian camp who want to get rid of Israel all together. If ISM were truly a pro-peace (not an anti-Israel) movement it would speak and act to stop violence FROM BOTH SIDES. BTW, the issue is not an academic debate about "root cause" - the real issue is how to end the conflict. The ISM is not contributing to this att all. Part of ending the conflict is healing, acceptance of the other, compromise etc... - The ISM has done NOTHING to build bridges between Palestinians and Israelis, but it has done a lot to vilify the image of Israel in both the view of the world and more importantly in the eyes of Palestinians. add your comments

Strange Conclusions LSM by ISMer 7:11am Sun Aug 3 '03 print comment Good morning ! It's a rather big leap in logic (or rather illogic) to conclude that ISM aids those who want to destroy Israel. It's a nice card to try and pull out. But it's completely false. As for vilifying Israel, as I said, we are merely telling people what is happening inside the West Bank and Gaza Strip. We don't have to make anything up, because, unfortunately, Israel's soldiers and settlers do quite enough to vilify themselves. Occupation and settlement are corrupting (as you seem to recognize) and Israel has been corrupted. We are not the one's who decided to build a Wall inside the Green Line and cut off hundreds of thousands of Palestinians from their land, and seize yet more Palestinian land. We are not the one's controlling 41.9% of the West Bank (B'Tselem) and 40% of Gaza with settlements, and continuing settlement growth at a rapid pace ! We are not the ones who have demolished 10,000 Palestinian homes since 1967, and 3,000 since 2001, most of that simply to acquire more land. We're just presenting the facts. As the world knows about suicide bombings, they should know about occupation, settlements and human rights abuses. And we aren't the one's who decide to respond to non-violent civilians with tear gas, sound bombs, batons, bullets and bulldozers. Sadly, those are choices made by Israeli soldiers. Israeli soldiers wouldn't look so bad to the world if they didn't do these things to civilians. I agree bridges need to be built. The Israelis I see building the bridges are from Ta'ayush, Gush Shalom, Rabbis for Human Rights, Israeli Committee Against House Demolition, Bat Shalom, Machsum Watch, Courage to Refuse, etc. (forgive me anyone for forgetting some of you). They are out their with the Palestinians every day, showing courage, making wonderful gestures, building bridges and working non-violently for peace and justice. We work closely with them. The more Israelis that work with those groups, the sooner there will be peace. Why don't you consider joining them as they build bridges ? add your comments

Building bridges by LSM 3:46pm Sun Aug 3 '03 print comment I think you are naive and manipulated by those who use you for incitment. building bridges witb Ta-ayosh will not siolev the conflict. building bridges is working with palestinians to recognize Israel right to exist. add your comments

Naivete is a Nice Accusation by ISMer 5:55pm Sun Aug 3 '03 print comment LSM, Its also always nice to throw out the naivete and manipulation accusations. It may reassure you to believe that ISM volunteers are naive and manipulated because you can then write us off raather tha dealing with reality, but its not the case. Tell, me, exactly who do you think is manipulating me/us ? I assure, you, I know from experience exactly who I'm working with and why, and so felt comfortable choosing to volunteer with ISM. You've chosen the wrong person to attempt to discredit in that way. If you don't like Ta'ayush, why not join with any of the six other Israeli groups I mentioned to build bridges ? add your comments