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Redeeming The 'Promised Land'...Thoughts For Yom Kippur Latin
by Rita Corriel 8:08pm Mon Oct 6 '03
rcorriel@fast.net

I respectfully offer these words as my own personal and group observance of the Jewish High Holidays this year. It takes the form of an urgent letter to the Israeli People, but in truth, I am speaking to all people everywhere.
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REDEEMING THE 'PROMISED LAND'...THOUGHTS FOR YOM KIPPUR

I respectfully offer these words as my own personal and group observance of the Jewish High Holidays this year. It takes the form of an urgent letter to the Israeli People, but in truth, I am speaking to all people everywhere.

"Hear O Israel":

I feel the deepest sense of sorrow, outrage, shame and fear, as I witness what appears to be the authoring of the final chapter in the history of the Jewish People. I believe it is a most profound and heartbreaking irony that, after suriving three thousand years of persecution as the 'other', in the end, it may be the state of Israel itself, the literal interpretation of the 'Promised Land', which actually kills Judaism. No one else *could* have done it. As long as we held to the love of the 'Law of G-d', the spirit of Judaism could not be destroyed. As long as the love of wisdom, justice, compassion and truth were alive within the people, the Jewish soul was indomitable. Because these qualities reflect ultimate values and higher Truth, they are life affirming and necessary for the survival of all human beings.

It has become quite clear to me now, that the state of Israel has become the 'Golden Calf', and the ritual of human sacrifice is being practiced upon its altar. The wall you are building to protect the 'Promised Land' is a reflection of the wall that you are building around your own hearts and minds. I believe this to be the root cause of the tragedy that is in fact, Israel/Palestine today. It is an absolutely essential and vital object lesson for us all, and we *must* grasp it now, before it is too late. This is precisely why the law against 'graven images' was such a monumental breakthrough within ancient Jewish thought. Idolotry means the elevation of that which is finite, transient and souless above that which is eternal, infinite and alive. Form becomes more important than substance; the letter of law supercedes the spirit of the law. Human beings who engage in idolotry become as souless, limited and hollow as the idols they worship, because that which lacks spirit cannot inspire, uplift or feed the human soul. Idols change with the passing fashion, rather than fashioning change, and they are subject to the most dangerous and insideous forms of manipulation.

The 'Promised Land' is a symbol for an ideal state of 'Being'. It is not a piece of real estate. It suggests living in an atmosphere which allows us to feel a sense of heartfelt belonging. This is a basic yearning and longing within the soul of every human being. It speaks to that innate sense of 'homesickness' which lies at the very core of the human condition. The deep intuitve sense that there *must* be a 'Promised Land', gives us inspiration and hope that there really is a better way to 'Be' in the world. It tells us there really is a way to create a society in which we do not feel lost, alienated and afraid. It moves us forward and gives us something to strive toward - a feeling of being 'home'. It comes from the intuitive 'knowing' that we, as a species, have the potential to actualize this kind of reality. However, each step taken toward it's creation must be worthy of it. If it is not, the ideal will unravel at its core, and collapse upon itself. The journey is as important as the destination. The ends will never justify the means, if the means do not reflect the the essential values of our highest ideals.

I am quite certain that you really do 'know' that you cannot blast your way into the 'Promised Land'. I believe that you do understand, deep within your hearts, that bricks and barbed wire, bullets and bombs, political manipulation and unscrupulous alliances, can never provide a foundation for a society that wishes to reflect higher values. You do realize that the destruction of life and the negation of human dignity can never glorify G-d. It is in fact, a betrayal of G-d. Why do you continue on this path which so obviously negates all of the wisdom and truth that has been presented by so many prophets, philosophers and teachers throughout the ages? Why haven't you learned from your own historically tragic experience, that when we dehumanize the 'other' we dehumanize ourselves? When we pretend that 'others' do not have hearts and souls; when we make our 'enemies' into two dimensional cartoon characters, we defile and degrade ourselves as well. I grew up feeling the pathos expressed in the declaration, "Never again!" However, you must understand that this not an exclusive directive. When it is not applied to *all* human beings it rings a hollow tone. You appear to have learned far more from the behavior of your oppressors, than from the experience of being oppressed. Yet you continue to see yourselves as victims. I see a nation that behaves as dangerously as any fanatical survivalist cult, rather than a rational, wise and just society. Realize now, that survival without meaning is not living.

It is time to wake up. 'See' that the world is not against you. It is you who refuse to listen and hear the voices of the global community. It is you who refuse to consider other points of view. Understand that this is not a matter of antisemitism. If you are being criticized, it is not because of your Judaism, but rather, for your lack of it. It is time to become lucid and truly reflect upon what you are doing. Consider the idea of 'choosing Divinely', rather than 'Divine choseness'. The myth of 'choseness' has always been the underlying rationale for oppression and dehumanization of the 'other'. It is the belief in one's right to dominate by Divine ordination. This has always been used to justify the most heinous acts in human history. It still is. It is a position that translates into the right to break G-d's Law in the interest of advancing one's own ends. Its proponents subvert, manipulate and trivialize our emotions, in order to bypass the human conscience. But there are no loopholes in Universal Law. No human being is exempt from the guilt and despair that permeates the soul when he has been destructive, no matter how many rationalizations he creates or idols he glorifies. And this always translates into a profound spiritual demoralization. It is part of the nature and design of the human psyche. We are all One. So how could it be otherwise? What we do to others we do to ourselves. And what we do to ourselves we do to our Creator.

You must understand, once and for all, that before we claim our identity as members of any nation, tribe, race, religion, profession, institution, movement or cause, we must first, and above all else, claim the identity that is our common Humanity. This is why the 'Righteous Christians' are given a special place of honor in Jewish holocaust history. They are called 'Righteous' precisely because they put their humanity above their national, religious and social identities. They refused to be idoloters. They held to Universal Law and to their own deep faith. They put their own survival on the line, rather than compromise what they knew was 'right' within their own hearts. Because of their deep trust in the authority of their own conscience, they had the strength of character to take the moral 'high road' and follow their own inner truth. This is the highest form of ethics. Do you truly believe you can accept anything less from yourselves, and expect to find Peace?

I believe that each and every painful experience contains within itself, the seeds of its own 'redemption'. The potential for an ever deepening understanding of Divine Justice and Wisdom lies latent within all apparant tragedies of life. There is always a creative solution to every problem, if we are willing to trust the infinite benevolence and creativity of the Source of our Beings. If we hold fast to the Truth that is written within our own hearts, we cannot go wrong. So I leave you with one final question to ponder on this day of Atonement. Do you really believe that G-d would create a world in which Human Beings need to break G-d's own Law, in order to survive?

Shalom,

Rita Corriel

Rita, an American Jew is a psychologist residing on the East Coast

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They are scared and who wouldnt be? Latin
by hi rita 10:10pm Mon Oct 6 '03

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It is crucial to understand that the Israelis don't kill because they like to kill but because they are gripped by fear, fear that is projected on to them from big screen theaters that remind us of the terrible loss of WW2.
The fear is projected in the living room from a small screen TV . The fear is projected every minute of the day from a little box, called the radio.
until security is restored the Society will seek security at any cost, even if their personal morals are at stake!

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DEAR RITA Latin
by hi rita 10:27pm Mon Oct 6 '03

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hi rita, i reread the piece of writing and it brought tears to my eyes.
it is an inspired piece i belive and I am thankful to you for that.

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thank you to "hi rita" Latin
by Rita Corriel 11:23pm Mon Oct 6 '03

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I appreciate your sincerity and understanding...Shalom, Rita Corriel

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..rita Latin
by goldberg 11:41pm Mon Oct 6 '03

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,,,dear rita,,,one thing we do not need is a lecture from the likes of you...you talk of fear...what do you know of fear?...a panhandler might spit on you....you might trip getting on a cablecar....what right do you have to lecture us about morality...do you really want us to all die, so you can hold your worthless head up to your worthless liberal shitfaced friends...do you honestly believe that the arabs will leave us be ,if we gave them every single thing they ask for...are you that stupid...has that hash fried your brains that much?.....you are one sorry excuse for a jew.... or a human being for that matter.

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What A Contrast! Latin
by David James Vickery 1:58am Tue Oct 7 '03

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Isn't it amazing? We read a lovely inspired heart-touching article: Redeeming The 'Promised Land'...Thoughts For Yom Kippur by Rita Corriel followed by an appreciative response from Hi Rita.

Then we get dragged down into the gutter by "you know who".

That's life, isn't it?

Thanks for your article Rita, it's what we all needed to hear, if only we would all listen.
David

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Thank You Rita Latin
by Shmarta Harry 4:30am Tue Oct 7 '03

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I wondered why so ...quiet? (that element mentioned above) and then I realized ...busy busy busy with prayers.


Always I hear: "we (israel) are a democracy! this is democracy! the voice of the people!"

Guess what? True deomocracy allows for dissent. (not just standing up and arguing in knesset)
Democracy allows for free and unbiased press.
When democracy does NOT allow for dissent it is no longer democracy.
Guess what it is called when one predominat group takes control and squashes dissent? and allows their military to make legal decisions?

A Civil society also allows for "manners".

Thank you, Rita, for your comment and perspective.
The "likes of you" is always welcome.
Never mind bullies who have so great a fear factor that they can not be a normal gentleman.

I often wonder how many psychologists the government employs (Hah) in order to understand the motivations of those who take their own life and others, in revenge.

Isn't living always the Best Revenge? I hope always to convince. We must ALL work to convince.

Please to Stick around...you will be able to see the workings of "some" minds and the psychology of why there is such a problem with "creative" solutions towards peace.

Shmarta Harry

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Thank you, Rita. Hebrew
by Dave Taggart 9:13am Tue Oct 7 '03
i4stix@yahoo.co.nz

print comment

Rita, I have read your offering several times
before commenting and each time I read it, I
understood a little more; thank you. My heart
swells each time I see the truth contained within
your words. So many times, Ive wondered, *why*
do the peoples who dwell in the cradle of
civilisation condone its destruction? How *can*
there ever be any honour in murder? How *can*
there be hope in a closed mind? How *can* the
elected representatives of Israel justify
attacking its neighbours?

I am many thousands of miles away, living in New
Zealand, but the carnage I witness via television
and the Internet leaves me in great pain, and I
wonder, *is* there any hope left for these
warring tribes? Then your offering appears. As
you have written, the answers are applicable to
the whole world. Yes, there *is* hope, but before
peace can occur, the Warrior Consciousness must
evolve and must remember what is written on every
heart. The road to peace is not paved with hatred
and vengeance, but with understanding and
creativity.

Yes, when we intentionally separate ourselves
from our neighbours, we separate ourselves from
G-d. When we use G-ds name to justify murder, we
defile G-d *and* ourselves. When we use the
Nuremburg defence as an excuse for our actions,
we become what we loathe. As you show, Rita,
there is a way out. But its not an easy road.
Nevertheless, the road being travelled now is a
literal dead-end. As Robert Plant used to sing:
Theres always time to change the road youre
on.

Thank you, Rita,

Dave.

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CONTRADITIONS!!! Rita VS Goldberg Latin
by SA 1:55pm Tue Oct 7 '03
address: SA phone: SA SA

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like hell and heavn, one i don't wana get near him and other i wish he is my nighbor.

contradiction is a main theme of jewish learning and education.reading them both (rita & goldberg)you can't do anything realy just read.lol

and if your that intersted you can chose sides. they do it every day in schools, university, how amazing

and scince ya got involved in this mind game, you have to say somthing!

rita is a far awy from reality, "what to be" but goldberg is traped in it.

well if we remmber how adam got kicked out of heavn" the promissed land" because he did not lisn to the words of G-d! you can cosider rita!!

And who givs a damn if God IS STANDING BESIDE HIM? so it is up to God to to decide who is going to stay lol!! thats for sure.

even if the arabs are not that highly educated people with multi-lingual understaning, tribal in there approches to life, does that mean that they need to be shot and pissed on there graves???

i alwys hoped for the jews the good thing so many people does also. because God have chosen them to be a samle of what a human can be!!

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CONTRADITIONS!!! Rita VS Goldberg Latin
by SA 1:56pm Tue Oct 7 '03
address: SA phone: SA SA

print comment

like hell and heavn, one i don't wana get near him and other i wish he is my nighbor.

contradiction is a main theme of jewish learning and education.reading them both (rita & goldberg)you can't do anything realy just read.lol

and if your that intersted you can chose sides. they do it every day in schools, university, how amazing

and scince ya got involved in this mind game, you have to say somthing!

rita is a far awy from reality, "what to be" but goldberg is traped in it.

well if we remmber how adam got kicked out of heavn" the promissed land" because he did not lisn to the words of G-d! you can cosider rita!!

And who givs a damn if God IS STANDING BESIDE HIM? so it is up to God to to decide who is going to stay lol!! thats for sure.

even if the arabs are not that highly educated people with multi-lingual understaning, tribal in there approches to life, does that mean that they need to be shot and pissed on there graves???

i alwys hoped for the jews the good thing so many people does also. because God have chosen them to be a samle of what a human can be!!

add your comments


 

Dear Rita Latin
by Ben 2:24pm Tue Oct 7 '03

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It is all well and good to write "'See' that the world is not against you. It is you who refuse to listen and hear the voices of the global community. It is you who refuse to consider other points of view."

I do not believe "the world" is against us, but I don't exactly reject the idea either. How does one explain the UN's 113-4 vote to condemn Israel's threat to "remove" Arafat. Where was the vote to condemn the terrorists who killed dozens of people in the preceding week? Why was there no UN vote against that?

Why, when the violence broke out three years ago, did the world collectively blame and condemn Israel, even though it was Israel who just two months earlier advance the peace process at Camp David and the Palestinians, not the Israelis, closed the door on diplomacy. Many European leaders participated in those negotiations, and those at Taba, and knew Israel was willing to make a deal and the Palestinians weren't. Still, no one offered Israel the benefit of the doubt. As a result, Israel has become highly suspicious of international opinion. In all honesty, can you blame them?

During the build-up to the American attack on Iraq, peace activists repeated again and again that war is the absolutely last option, after all avenues of negotiations have been exhausted. But they refuse to apply this principle to Israel. Israel was still willing to negotiate, but the Palestinians launched a war. Where are the peace activists? They all lined up in solidarity with the Palestinans. What happened to the anti-war rhetoric?

However, issues of anti-Semitism aside, I do agree that it is not our Judaism that is at issue, but the lack of it, as you say.

But please, stay away from the black and white definitions.

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'Dear' Rita Latin
by Shirl 2:58am Wed Oct 8 '03

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Shalom Rita,
It sure is nice to hide behind the 'quotation marks'' comfort.
I appreciate the 'respectful' language you used. Your approach is very 'wise', indeed.

I *gotta* admit that I *didn't* read your whole article. It sounded as if you were repeating yourself again and again. Thought you knew that APA style doesnt allow fragments.

Anyways, the one thing that stood out was the Promised Land issue you kept referring to. Of course you showed how much validty you thought that term has by using the '' you know''.

Ritaleh, I don't think you know much about Judaism, Israel, ME( Middle East) policy, its history and mentality.

The fact that you used the term 'the prmomised land' shows how much you dont understand the current Israeli motives. We do not live on ' the promised land' Rita, even the Jews that say they dont believe in Gd understand that fact. We live on a small part of the biblical promised land, and on some parts that were not.

The current Israeli struggle is the one of the Israeli born citizens, the modern day Israel IS their home, the only home they know, just like 50 years' ago precious palestinians.
This is not a religious issue for most Israelis. Its an existential one. This is not a real estate matter, this is a matter of security.
If we would have thought that returning to the 1967 borders would bring us peace and security, we would have done it. Just like we did in Yamit (Sinai).

Yet past experience shows, this "lands" for peace formula doesnt always work.

And a psychologist should understand that there are many factors contributing to this situation. Saying " the Israeli side is at fault here" is childish unbalanced and lacks any sort of base.
A psychologist should know that such a matter requires researches, experiments and surveys in order to reach a conlclusion, self-assertion is way off limits.
I didnt see anywhere in your article any proof for most of the things you claimed.
Yet those same things could be countered by facts known to us all.
For example, before there was any sort of Israeli Identity the palestinian/Arab aggression began. In fact it never stoppped, and you resfusing to acknoledge that important fact shows your narrowminded point of view.
The fact that you ignore the numerous trusted polls showing Palestinians still wont be satisfied with a 1967 bordered Israeli, and even greater numbers of arabs supportign that notion, shows you choose what you want to see only, and put into account what supports your views alone.
In fact the only ones who are dehumanized are the Jews and Israels. The only face they win on the Arab media if at all, is of a hooknosed Jew. BORING. Its unbelieveable what concepts and ideas they have of us. Dont you think this makes it even harder for us to achieve peace with them? When they are so ignorant of who we are and what we stand for?
I have yet to see an article on this platform that brings all those important factors like the daily palestinian brainwashing that started way b4 there were any 'settlements' around.
Then why again should I argue with people who view all of Israel as a settlement itself.

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The Talmud and More Latin
by Judith 4:57am Wed Oct 8 '03

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I believe that Rita's piece was not intended to be a history lesson, but a purely spiritual expression. She also stated that this was for "all people everywhere". It is very sad to see how angry people become when they read something that supports the likes of Jeremiah, who was stoned to death for speaking on behalf of Gd, because he was seen as a traitor. He was torn apart inside because he knew that he would be rejected by his people,but still he spoke. And to be so facetious as to talk of APA form, as per Shirl, and the little jabs..How embarrasingly petty. Rita never claimed to be writing for a psychological journal. I work in the tourist industry, but i am not writing this as a travel agent. She seemed to me to be writing from a concern for a loss of perspective, and of what it means to be a real 'mensch'. And it is sad to see how right she is.

To quote Talmud: "Aid an enemy before you aid a friend, to subdue hatred." Tosefta, Baba Metzia 2.26
"God said, 'Resemble Me; just as I repay good for evil so do you also repay good for evil". --Exodus Rabbah 26.2.

Thank you Rita, for reminding us that we have hardened our hearts which prophets warned against time and again. Thank you for reminding us that "survival without meaning is not living". Thank you for reminding us that violence only leads to violence, and that remembering history means nothing if we don't learn from it. Our Prime Minister who negotiated for peace was not assasinated by a Palestinian, but by a Jew. Interesting how things have gotten so much worse for us in every way since then. Why isn't anyone talking about this? If this murder was carried out by a Palestinian, well....I am finished now...Shalom

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Dear Rita and Judith , hello: Latin
by H 5:17am Wed Oct 8 '03

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I am consoled by your messages of integrity.
Your posts resonate in my heart as I believe it resonates in other hearts too.
Toda.
Peace hayom.,

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FYI Latin
by Steve 6:02am Wed Oct 8 '03

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I am a 'west coast' american Jew...I wonder how many Israelis realize that the right wing christian coalition, including the likes of Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell, are the biggest supporters of Israel now...These are people who believe that the 'second coming' can't happen until all Jews return to Israel. They also happen to believe that this won't happen until all Jews are either converted or dead. It is now called 'Christian Zionism'. They have telethons and raise tons of cash to send Jews back to their 'homeland'. It is a very large movement. I think you need to take a look outside of your borders and do a serious reality check about what is going in the world, because it sure looks like you are the ones who are really naive!

It is amazing how that old cliche' about 'the enemies of my enemies are my friend' is still so entrenched in some minds..Talk about not learning from history...It seems to me that Rita is not the one who is out of touch with reality here. And your government claims to speak for all Jews of the world and is supposed to provide us with a safe haven?? The Sharon administration has many of us more scared then ever!

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Whats your point "Judith"? Latin
by Shirl 6:17am Wed Oct 8 '03

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Rabin was murdered by a Jew. Your point is?
Needless to say all Israelis deeply mourned the life that was taken by some creep.

I am appalled at the fact you even tried to use it to support any twisted view of yours.What a tasteless try.

And shall we apply *your point* to the numerous times arabs tried to assassinate their own leaders? Action that was most of the times supported by the people, like late King Hussein who by the age of 35 or so escaped about 5 of those?

Yudit yekira(darling),

Balancing your views once in a while wouldnt hurt.

One question: why is it that you completely ignore the daily brainwashing that's going on the PA(Pali Auth) and arab countries alike, the statements made by their leaders, the actions they are taking and the lack of democracy that prevails in those areas?

Yudit, again, blaming all on one side is illogical, instead of sounding like a walking propoganda machine and destructively criticizing one side only, acknowledge the fact that naturally both sides here carry responsibility, there is no more or less, and no right or wrong.

Shalom al ISRAEL.

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..steve.....goodby Latin
by goldberg 6:56am Wed Oct 8 '03

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...we sure would rather have those right wing christians as allies...then osama,and the rest of the terrorists that are the allies of your palestinian baby killers and maimers....well tell you what steve...good by...your jewish soul has left or maybe never was...so go marry your shiksa..and disappear in to the clouds of former mindless and gutless jews.....in every generation the braindead are gone.

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So much hostility Latin
by Carson 2:42pm Thu Oct 9 '03

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A caring, spiritual piece, and i watch the news and see nothing but israeli aggression, threatening to bomb other countries, and yes, bombing syria because of a grief stricken and irrational woman who did a suicide bombing...i am thinking that israel is nothing more than an arm of u.s. military...shame on you!!! Yes, when you don't learn from history you repeat it...I think israel wants to be rejected by the world..it is part of identity of the people..without it, you wouldn't have anything to complain about...Grow up and become descent human beings..I know there is Gush-Shalom, and i get their news items..They are the intelligent and caring israelis...So it is possible to be there and not be totally numbed out..Israel keeps threatening to start WWIII and who do you think your buddies in the u.s. are gonna blame?? You are so incredibly self centered and disconnected from reality and the rest of the world....That's it...

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carson Latin
by Shirl 3:44pm Thu Oct 9 '03

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Heya Carson, what is it that you watch? Al Jazeera?
Its a known fact you shouldnt trust the media...I take it you saw nothing with your own eyes.

The issue of Israel attacking Syria, ummm, U must not know Syria's history in re to Israel. The bombing on the deserted terror camp was only a sign as to show that Israel knows that Syria is a major supporter and founder of this terror that murders innocent people. If you find Syria to be innocent then your name must be Ahmed, not Carson.

Finally, Israel cares too much about what the world thinks, It has the means to do a lot, but it only uses a fraction of its power, because Israel is human unlike its neighbors, and obviously there is always external pressure.

I don't think you got the grip of it. You don't seem to know a lot about the situation. Id suggest you'd go and research the subject if it really touches your heart.

Things are not always as they seem.

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Now I can see where Sharon is coming from! Latin
by Cosar 10:52am Tue Oct 14 '03
g_cosar@hotmail.com

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I actually cannot believe that Rita's article -which I also believe was more written in a personal and emotional wish to reach out and not as a professional or in the thought of claiming to 'know everything'- could be the source of so much hatred from the likes of Shirl. Then again it is easy to see that hatred and contempt are feelings/reactions more familiar to this person (and the many more like her).

For starters the camp in Syria was not a terrorist camp, not only Syrian authorities and members of the Palestinian organisation opposed this but also some members of the media around the world (from the UK and even the US) have expressed this thought. So instead of attacking everyone and accusing them of 'watching Al Jazeera' etc. it wouldn't be such a bad idea if Shirl did some reading her/him self.

I am an Australian living in Turkey. Middle East politics is one of my areas of specialty. I could tell you about tens of incidents/events/dates in which the Palestinian side has been oppressed, connived and deceived. I could tell you about the role of the British and the step by step occupation of Palestinian lands. The strength of the Jewish lobby now in the US and their activities are known to almost all except for such miserable people as Shirl. Just a few months ago while on a trip to an ancient monastery in the Black Sea region of Turkey I encountered a group of young Jewish men who were stating out loudly -in English probably considering that nobody would understand them- "Jerusalem is ours". Their hatred is so deep down rooted that they feel the necessity of claiming this in a country such as Turkey, probably only because the majority is Muslims. Yet despite this fact -and many more similar and worse examples- most of the people here make a special effort to differentiate between the Israeli state and the people of Israel.

Many more things could be said but I don't want to take much more space here. It is relieving to know that there are the other people like Rita and all the others who actually believe in peace. Thank you to them.

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so what? Latin
by Shirl 10:50pm Wed Oct 15 '03

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So what if you are currently in Turkey?
Does it make you an expert? There are tons of people who claim they know the "truth" about the situation, who undermine the ways to solve the conflict, and think they can do a much better job than the current politicians....Boring indeed...
The Middle East conflicts are ones that troubled many politicians, and true experts in the area, most failed when trying to apply a solution, because they were not being realistic.
It amazes me how people like you think they have it all figured out, you guys call yourselves "peaceniks" thinking it adds to your decaying legitimacy, but in my opinion people like you hinder the realization of any sort of peace in the region.
The conflict cannot be oversimplified and blamed on one side only, which is exactly what you guys are doing, its amazing how you are so kind to those who think like you, yet so mean to those who'll dare expressing a different opinion...yet you still call yourselves "peace lovers"...please choose a name that would actually describe what you guys actually love, lemme give ya a hint, its starts with a P as well...

Rita, the fact that you wrote that "letter"/ article so carefully doesn't give ya too much credit also. Again, the fact that you ignored so many important factors in this continuous conflict, by ignoring them, you make them unexistent, I hold you responsible for misdirecting people using boring emotional tools and the fact that yiu are jewish...Unbelieveable...
And it's unbelievable how others would use that fact to try and verify and legitimize her feelings...

What hap'd to objective unbiased sources?
Is that the best you guys could come up with?

How bout trying to promote peace without bashing Israelis and Jews for a change??? Without undermining their pain? and without ignoring the facts on the ground, like the propoganda arabs daily are being fed with concerning hook nosed jews behind talking trees???? And instead use individual incidents as a general occurence, so it would fit your views well....

Cosar, when closed-minded people like YOU would actually pay attention to these issues and hold all responsible for their action and not just the select few that support you current agenda, peace perhaps will be achievable...

amen.

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..shirl Latin
by goldberg 6:49am Thu Oct 16 '03

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....go girl you are the greatest....

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And on it goes Latin
by Dave 7:14am Thu Oct 16 '03

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What a rabid person Shirl is, asking for unbiased, objectivity (as if such a thing really exists) and all the while spitting vitriol. Has Shirl actually read the whole article or, as was said the first piece by him/her, Shirl still hasn't bothered?
Also, Shirl, have you ever considered that the true purpose of the Wall currently being built around your precious piece of real estate might not be to keep the Palestinians out, but to keep the Jews in? How often, when I see its continued construction, I am reminded of a Concentration Camp. And Falwell et. al continue to raise money to 'repatriate' Jews from Russia. What will happen when there's enough Jews safely ensconced behind an unbreachable Wall? Do you really think that Falwell and his phoney cronies love the Jews? Reality check time, Shirl!

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dave Latin
by Shirl 8:51am Thu Oct 16 '03

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Whats up?
I appreciate the response...

It sounds as stupid as the following:
Do you really think that the Neturei Karta Jews who rally with (pro)Palestinian movements and who burn Israel's flag really like the Palestinians?

No, actually they don't like anyone that is not like them, pretty scary shit, but sadly enough, the propalis use them to legitimize their cause, pathetic, they must be proud.

Falwell?
Israelis and Palestinians couldn't care less about him...

The wall though is a different issue....and yet again, you oversimplify it... blaming Israel for wanting to make the Palestinians' lives harder...to steal land, to humiliate them, and blah blah blah....

Well, you can believe whatever you want....

But don't pertain to be realistic while ignoring the fundamental flaws of the side you adore oh so very much those same flaws play a major role in this ongoing conflict.

Now class, how many people does it take to tango??

2

Unfortunately, this seems more and more like the hava nagila dance.


Shalom al Israel.

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My sincere apologies Latin
by shirl 5:06pm Thu Oct 16 '03

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I realize how offensive and rude I have been with so many people on this website. I have repeatedly tried to promote anger and negative feelings whenever I have read an article here. I don't know why I behave this way, but I know it is rather uncivilized. My aplogies to those I have offended..

Sincerely, Shirl

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Its Shirl not shirl Latin
by Shirl 5:24pm Thu Oct 16 '03

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you can't get any lower than this. Your action speaks for itself.

Shalom Al Israel


P.S. I usually don't write my name at the bottom, always at the top babes.

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The problem with shirl: Latin
by Truth! 12:26am Fri Oct 17 '03

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The problem for Shirl with the article is that it is non judgemental and therefore shakes us to the very core as we can no longer blame our own misfortune on others but are ourselves to blame.
Thus, goys can no longer be the scapegoats because after one engages in self reflection he realizes that others are not responsible for his/her own misfortune.

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And still, on it goes Latin
by Dave 12:30am Fri Oct 17 '03

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All hail Malke Shirl-not-shirl, the final mumcheh of all things Jewish. Shirl-not-shirl, you assume that Im pro-Palestinian and/or anti-Jewish; has the calcification of your heart spread to your brain already? Ive never made any statement that a sane person could draw such conclusions from.

You also say that you dont care about Falwell; so what? I was referring to the Fundamentalist Christian agenda of Falwell et. al that would have all Jews either converted to their sect or exterminated - pay attention! Abusing people for their viewpoints is *not* debate, Shirl-not-shirl; who do you hate the most, the Palestinians or yourself?

Or is it that you take the greatest pride in trying to force people to hate you, thereby *proving* your argument that the world hates all Jews? Because hate is what you write. Rita *is* correct, there *are* Jews who have built a wall around their hearts and minds; Shirl-not-shirl, you exemplify Ritas thesis. There is *no* love in your heart. And that, I find to be so sad; with such hatred, how can anyone find peace?

But, peace is not on your agenda, is it Shirl-not-shirl? Doubtless, personal loss either fuels your bitterness, or is the root of it, but unless you heal your personal pain it will consume you a slow process that will have you infect others with your hatred first. Seek help, Shirl-not-shirl, you need it so much.

For anyone who has a genuine interest in the Christian agenda for Israel, this is a good article; some quotes are very revealing:
http://nymetro.com/nymetro/news/religion/features/n_9225/

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Shirl is a self hating jew. Latin
by The TrutH! 12:52am Fri Oct 17 '03

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Shirl, like all zionists belongs to a sect of self hating Jews.
Her mentors are Zionists like Herzl (who was a blatant Antisemite) Chaim Weizmann who despised Jews and Ben Gurion who sacrifices as a routine jews on the alter.
Her self hatred needs an outlet, so s/he abuses Palestinians and engages in violent outbursts with those whom s/he disagree with.
Unfortunately s/he exemplifies the norm rather than the exception among contemporary Jewry.

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They're joint at the Hip..(shirl n' Goldberg) Latin
by ... 1:10am Fri Oct 17 '03

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is it any wonder why goldberg roots for her...

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Dave Latin
by Shirl 1:27am Fri Oct 17 '03

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Dave Melekh Israel (two can play that game)...

Appreciate the response.

Don't quit your daytime job Dave Melekh Israel cause you suck at trying to analyze people.

Yes doc, I do try to make the whole world hate me! Does it show that bad???

lamest excuse Ive ever heard!
When did I say I think the world hates me, or Jews in general?
That's right! Never!
the roof is on fire.

Yet we have you here making up excuses for why the world hates me ( or is it you?) saying I want the world to hate me so I could prove they hate me....no, it's not as confusing as it sound, but it sure is stupid.
Oh no, so I dared expressing a different opinion from yours, and dared crticizing Rita's beautfully written letter!!! me sinner! you tarazan...

Im asking you to consider both sides of the coin, and you are telling me I don't want peace, how does the latter relate to the former?
Is this your way of trying to attack me verbally, saying I don't want peace?
So I faced reality, saying it is impossible to create a state for the palestinians based on democratic humanistic values when there arent even equal rights for women, when they are constantly being brainwashed about jews etc. and you are trying to shut me up telling me Im not pro peace cause I observed something that hinders it????



You hardly know what my views concerning the palestinians, the fact that I strongly criticize the way things work in the PA is because I actually do care about peace!
Im included in the high% of Israelis that seek peace, and want a peaceful solution to this ongoing conflict!

Yet no matter how many times Ive raised this imperative issue Ive been virulently attacked!

Question: How do you think you help the promotion of peace in the ME?

By analyzing Jews in general and saying that they all have built walls around their hearts?

Who died and made you an expert?

what is this, a psychologist wannabes site?

Id suggest retaking psych 101. That includes you Rita.

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dera shirl Latin
by ... 2:01am Fri Oct 17 '03

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Shirl, this is not the place to share your neurosis with the contributors.
Your animosity towards those who shared their appreciation for the original post needs to be dealt in the privacy of your shrinks' business office.
I wish you luck,.

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the diagnosis Latin
by shrink 2:07am Fri Oct 17 '03

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shirl's self hatred stems from poor self esteem and a lack of lucidity...

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OK Descartes and Watson Latin
by Shirl 3:26am Fri Oct 17 '03

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I'll listen once you'll follow what you preach docs.

Shalom al Israel.

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Rita- seems like she doesn't know that much Latin
by bout Judaism 5:31am Fri Oct 17 '03

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Rita you asked the following: " G-d would create a world in which Human Beings need to break G-d's own Law, in order to survive? "

Yes, Jews do believe it, it says : " ve nishmartem le nefshotekhem" in the torah(Hebrew Version of course) which roughly means protect your lives.

The torah also directs us to break laws in case of "piku-akh nefesh" (when one is in danger) and for that teh famous saying "pikuakh- nefesh dokhe shabat"( when one's life is in danger he can override shabbat laws inhibiting him of taking care of the situation. Oversimplified of course.

We appreciate the gift Gd gave us: life. We are commanded to treasure this precious gift, to not harm or mark our bodies in any way, and to return them to Gd afterwards, when Gd decides time arrives.

Moshe gave us torah in sinai, in that torah it was written that we can choose not to follow a law when it is life endangering.

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RE bout Judaism Latin
by Dave 10:08am Fri Oct 17 '03

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What you say is an exceptionally thin justification for taking anothers life. Such circumstances are very rare. For example, what has just occurred at Rafah in no way fits your statement. Nor does any use of heavy artillery to target an individual or group.

There are those who would interpret what you say to justify anything, even pre-emptive violence. What Rita said prior to the statement you questioned is that there is always a *creative* solution to any problem; creativity always being life-affirming.

Destructive *solutions* are an affront to G-d, despite any special dispensations you may find. The great challenge for humans is to rise above violent solutions and seek always the creative spirit within.

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