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ISM could prevented the horror - but choose to stand on th side line in the face
by LSM 7:32am Wed Aug 20 '03

Just few days ago this article had this call to ISM to engage in real non-vioent direct action to preserve the peace.

ISMers were aware of this call. They choose to ignore it.

E-mails with this call were previously sent to Gassan Andoni but were ignored as well.
print article

Original request from ISM:

"Ride a bus for two weeks in Jerusalm with a sign in Arabic (like those sign in Hebrew you ISM put on homes in raffah). The sign should read:

"International and children on this bus. Do not detonate here"

If by the end of your 2 weeks of riding buses in Jerusalm you will still be in one piece you will have the comfort of knowing that you helped peace. "

indymedia.org.il/imc/webcast/display.php...

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ISM Knows what will happen Latin
by Ben 7:59am Wed Aug 20 '03

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The ISM knows what would happen if they started riding buses in Israel in solidarity with Israeli civilians: they would be blown up just like anyone else.

That's why they choose to attack Israel, the only place in the entire Middle East where they can confidently interfere with the military and expect to live.

The fact that the ISM won't operate on behalf of Israeli civilians against Palestinian war crimes only shows how hollow their "couragous" acts really are.

They only prove that Israel is the leader in human rights in teh region - despite the ISM's efforts to divert attention from the lack of freedom anywhere in the Arab world.

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The issue is more complex Latin
by LSM 8:58am Wed Aug 20 '03

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If ISM would speak clearly (in Arabic) against terror and for healing and compromise they would be kicked out of many places they are in today.

Just last Wednesday, ISM visited an Islamic strong hold in the university of Hebron - not a place tp preach about peace.

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Preach through actions Latin
by Not ISM 9:30am Wed Aug 20 '03

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But LSMiella,

I am not with ISM, but as an Israeli activist, I do know some of the 'leaders' (as you call them) and I know what they are attempting to accomplish.

ISM preach through action.

You may not agree with this tactic, but it is one which tries to set an example for the Palestinians to shift to non-violent action as the mainstay of anti-occupation activity.

They hope that if they show successful non-violent action, that more and more Palestinians will see it as effective and choose it as a path.

Their focus is, on the one hand to get more international focus on the issues of occupation through their actions, but also (and perhaps more importantly) to be able to influence Palestinian thought towards non-violent action.

An outright stand against the legitimacy of violent struggle, which has been a sizable component of Palestinian resistance since the First Arab Revolt, will ostracize a large part of the community who at this point are socialized to believe that it is not only legitimate, but the only chance for possible success in ending the occupation.

If they spoke directly against these tactics, they would probably find themselves uninvited to a lot of places, just as you say.

However, not speaking against, but showing through practice a different non-violent, yet active, approach to fight the occupation has the ability of opening up Palestinian minds to the possibility of different ways of acting.

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ISM Success Latin
by Ben 10:09am Wed Aug 20 '03

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The ISM should not be seeking popularity but peace. That means taking a strong stand against extreme violence like what happened yesterday.

The ISM is carefull to point out how legitimate Palestinian "resistance" is. They repeat this mantra even during a cease-fire and a peace process, even though these are times to promote a peaceful solution. They don't seem to understand that Israel only wants security. When violence stop, not for a day, a week, or a month, but permanently, a solution to the conflict will follow.

If the ISM can't speak out about the need for non-violence, even after the cold-blooded killing of many innocents, including children and babies, they are failing miserably in their mission to bring non-violence to the region.

At the very least, they should stop promoting the "right" to resistance, which in practicality, resists nothing except a peaceful end to the conflict.

Lets face the facts: the ISM is a pro-Palestinian advocacy group whose goal is not peace, but Israel's surrender. Their silence in the face of extreme Palestinian violence says it all about their real intentions.

I expect we're going to see some of the standard responses from ISM zombies now. Let the brainwashing begin.

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The Palestinians Have the Right to Resist Latin
by Civilian's Rights Coalition 10:14am Wed Aug 20 '03

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Under international law,1 and in accordance with the purposes and principles of the Charter of the United Nations, the Palestinian people, as well as all peoples under colonial domination and foreign occupation, possess the right to self-determination and struggle for national liberation. We support the exercise of this right within the limits of international law but regard all deliberate and indiscriminate attacks against civilians as war crimes.2

1. Consult United Nations General Assembly Resolutions 1514 (the Declaration on the Granting of Independence to Colonial Countries and Peoples, December 14, 1960), 3070 (November 30, 1973), 3103 (December 12, 1973), 3246 (November 29, 1974), 3328 (December 16, 1974), 3481
(December 11, 1975), 31/91 (December 14, 1976), 32/42 (December 7, 1977), 32/154 (December 19, 1977), 33/24 (November 29, 1978), 34/44 (November 23, 1979), 36/9 (October 28, 1981), 37/40 (December 3, 1982), 37/43 (December 3, 1982), 40/25 (November 29, 1985), S-14/1
(September 20,1986), and 48/94 (December 20, 1993) among others.

2. Such attacks on civilians violate the Geneva Conventions of 1949 and the provisions of Protocol 1 that are considered customary international law.

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Israel could have prevented the horror ...... Hebrew
by Blimey 10:42am Wed Aug 20 '03

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....... but chose to go into Askar on August 9th
and murder 4 human beings, demolish a house, gas
the camp and steal a body from a family.

........ but chose to settle Hebron and drive out
43% of the H2 residents.

...... but chose to carry on building a wall well
inside the Green line, cutting off Palestinians
from their agricultural land and fencing them
into open air prisons.

....... but chose to kill 11 in July, whilst also
injuring 280 and arresting 312.

....... but chose not to withdraw to the Green
Line and defend their borders from there.

...... but chose to carry on building and
supporting settlements

...... etc etc etc etc etc

Despite the fact that we have said it many, many
times, the Occupation continues and it continues
to create militants.

LSM, you're like a bloody stuck record with a
distinct hearing problem.


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Dear "not ISM" Latin
by LSM 11:05am Wed Aug 20 '03

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Dear " "not" ISM"

You speak nice "lawyerish" but I am a simple retired bicycle thief.

The ISM does not "show by action" - the ISM actions are to create propaganda opportunisms carefully crafted to fit the mind of the world media.

An action like Anin, where ISMers cur the fence is done so that in later Al-Aharam and other could print" IDF shot at unarmed protestors"

There is nothing in this action that was non-violent or targeted at getting peace and you know it (although you may pour words and words saying that this action is continuing of the work of Gandhi)

Gandhi and is followers marched against life bullets from the British - they did not attack the British. If the ISM would learn something from Gandhi salt march they would tell the Palestinians: “built an economy not based on Israel”

They do none of this.
They do not speak clearly, in Arabic against violence.
They do not protect Israeli civilians with signs SIMILAR TO THE ONE THEY HAVE PLACED IN RAFFAH.
They do not show the way for real civil disobedience - every action of theirs is targeted at the world media not at the Israeli public.

This is not the way to “win the heart on mind of the opponent” - which is the core of Gandhi teaching. He spoke about truth and love while ISM practice lying (from the air port all the way to publicized “truth tours” across the US) and itג€™s actions contribute to spreading of hate.

Hate is spread via a simple message to Palestinians: Continue doing what you do - donג€™t change, just augment it with smart propaganda that we (the ISM media office) will arrange for you - this send a clear message that is read in Every ISM PR: “Israel is the only guilty party in this conflict”

Not telling Palestinians the truth - namely that the Palestinians have a part (greater smaller - I will not debate it but it is significant enough) in creating violence and a responsibility to end it - this revel the true nature of ISM: It is the “non-violent” propaganda arm of what is otherwise a bloody campaign to destroy Israel.

Even if you accept (like I do) that the Israeli government is doing much wrong with the occupation, closures, targeted killings etc - the suicide bombings are nothing but war crimes in the form of collective punishment inflicted on innocent children - ISM has not spoken one word against in it (in English and in Arabic)

As a direct action group ISM should do MORE than just speak about - ISM should take action about. ISMers can spend the next 3 months on buses in Jerusalem with a sign in Arabic: “International and children on this bus - Do not detonate here”

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Goodbye Daniella/LSMer ...................... Latin
by Blimey 11:15am Wed Aug 20 '03

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...... there's nothing left to say

I'll reserve my replies for those worth communicating with.

Your points have been raised, andswered, raised, answered, raised, answered over and over again.

You appear to lack basic comprehension skills, and to have the political awareness of a toaster.

And you're so bad at it, that instead of undermining the credibility of ISM, you've ended up undermining the credibility of Daniella/LSM.

Keep up the bad work

:)

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Good bye Blimey Latin
by LSM 11:23am Wed Aug 20 '03

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My message arrived to those who need to hear it.

This is life and death - not a debate club.

As for you, many online comunities have people who say: "This is it I am leaving" - but you will be back, under a new name.

You see, it is human nature to want to say: " I am out of here" Hack, I wanted to leave israel so many times. But in the cyber world it is so easy to do and maybe you will not respond a day or two.

But you will be back. I assure you that. This message is geared toward encorging you to stay away for as long as you can. But you will be back.

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A question to Blimey Latin
by Former ISMer 11:27am Wed Aug 20 '03

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The answer to all your above questions is: Israel.

Does this mean that you justify collective punishment against the innocent babies who's flash was torn in Yesterday attack ?

Just because they are israelis - Is this what you are saying ?

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You are TRYING to kick people off Indymedia? Latin
by Long line of Turncoats 12:09pm Wed Aug 20 '03

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"This message is geared toward encorging you to stay away for as long as you can"

What gives you the right to bully people and take over the site?

The only people listening to your monologue are the right wing. They are saying: "see, another former leftist got enlightened".

Now you are in the company of David Horowitz, Christopher Hitchens, Benny Morris and the like.

Good for you...

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Former ISMer Latin
by Blimey 12:19pm Wed Aug 20 '03

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"The answer to all your above questions is: Israel.

Does this mean that you justify collective punishment against the innocent babies who's flash was torn in Yesterday attack ?

Just because they are israelis - Is this what you are saying ?"

Perhaps you think that Palestinians should make a unilateral decision to stop all violence, whilst the IOF continues to brutalise their society in so many ways?

I seem to recall that many innocent Palestinians have been killed - just because they are Palestinian.

Mofaz seems to believe that he can beat the Palestinians into submission, I think that it is very clear that he can't.

Now, where exactly did I justify collective punishment. I seem to recall that the Palestinians did a much better job of maintaining the Hudna than the Israeli Occupation Force did. Collective punishment and all.

Do you really expect that the IOF can terrorise a Refugee camp, and drive 43% of H" residents out, without any retaliation??

I suggest that if the powerful side stops it's violence, the brutalised side will find it increasingly difficult to recruit more kids who don't care if they live or die.

What say you?

And LSM seems unable to understand what I wrote - I didn't say I was leaving Indymedia, just that I can't be arsed to communicate with a deaf, stuck record with comprehension problems.

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To "Long line of Turncoats" Latin
by LSM 12:29pm Wed Aug 20 '03

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I see you have no sense of humor.

No body bulliying anyone - actually I want blimey to stay - and voila: he is back on this thread already.

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Pleas Please Blimey Stay Latin
by Slappy 1:38pm Wed Aug 20 '03

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With the conspicuous silence of John Veldhuis, there is no one else on this site capable of bringing me and my friends into states of non-stop laughter like Blimey.

I just see the name and I start to laugh. It makes me soooo happy to see the ignorance and pure heartlessness (and outright racism) expressed by the ISM in general and Blimey in particular. Nothing leaves me more secure in the noral rightness of our position.

The Palesitnians are cursed from cradle to grave. Just look at the quality of their leaders, and their defenders.

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To Blimey Latin
by Daniella 1:39pm Wed Aug 20 '03

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You wrote:

"Perhaps you think that Palestinians should make a unilateral decision to stop all violence, whilst the IOF continues to brutalize their society in so many ways?"

I think that both sides should unilaterally stop the violence.

There is no point to get into debates: "who started."
This is not kindergarten.

There have been Many Palestinian violation of the self-declared hudana. (Remember that Israel only had an agreement with the PA on Gaza and that Israel is still responsible for security else where - I heard Saib Erakat says this just today in order to remove Arafat from responsibility to Yesterday war-crime)

So you cannot hold this stick on both ends. There have been innocent Israelis killed (Kvar Yavetz, Jaffa and more) before Israel did the actions in Hebron and in Nablus - so I am not sure you will win if you go into the stupid argument of “who started”.

One thing is VERY VERY clear: Although I am against ANY violence there is a difference between killing an Israeli soldier or a Islamic Jihad militant - both are military targets and the war crime of killing civilians (Israelis and Palestinians) - so if you insist on being a smart ass letג€™s do the math:

Israel killed 1 child (Barta) and two civilians (that took part in riots in balata)
Palestinians killed in Jaffa (1), Yavetz (1), Natharet (1), Shlomi (1), Rosh Haain (1 dead, 9 wounded) and Jeruslam (20) + there are hundreds who got wounded - many are kids.

So who do you think does more war crimes?

This is all childish. Sorry I got dragged to this. I must have forgot few victims from both sides but clearly: Deliberate Attacks on civilians are the heart of the problem - If they will stop we have an slim hope to move forward. The Palestinian side cannot avenge the life of a declared MILITANT by killing CIVILIANS - this is collective punishment and a war crime.

What is more important is to see what Sharon will do - do you think he will now launch a major attack?

So far he did not but will have to see.

Obviously, if he wanted an excuse to launch a major attack - hammas gave him one.

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Daniella to Slappy Latin
by Daniella 1:52pm Wed Aug 20 '03

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The massage expressed in this last threads need to be spread. There are indy media, there are left wing mailing lists on Yahoo, on riseup.net. Spread the word.

The left should understand that working for peace and healing is not just to place all the blame on israel - this leads no where but to further violence

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Slappy - happy Latin
by Blimey 5:06pm Wed Aug 20 '03

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"The Palesitnians are cursed from cradle to grave. Just look at the quality of their leaders, and their defenders."

Ah yes, well there we go. Now if they only had an Ariel Sharon, eh?

That'd be nice, wouldn't it?

Now, heartlessness, outright racism and ignorance, eh?

If you were capable of reflection, you might read the quote and blush.

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We should not talk to the racisy Blimey Latin
by AMR 9:05pm Wed Aug 20 '03

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I was reading quietly all that these two things were writing about us.

Yes, I meant the two things called themselves Blimey and John V.

Both, without any shadow of doubt, are designated racists, twisted minded, Jews haters, Anti-Semitics, Anti-Israel, pro-terrorists.

Worse, they are in complete denial of this fact, and this is a fact, I was reading carefully every note of those two cockroaches and was amazed.

My library is full of books that I was reading them in an effort to understand what brought the Europeans to do what they were doing to my family in the concentration camps.
I do understand now the level of Jews-hatred that brought to the murder of 6 millions of us just recently. I witnessed that in the notes of the beasts, Blimey and John V.

That kind of hatred is so hot that is capable of igniting again the terrible ovens our ancestors were burned in.

I am amazed of the level of preoccupation and prejudice these two cockroaches are holding.
They are coming from Europe and if somebody is allowed on generalization Europe is the place we are allowed to. After all Europe is the biggest place on earth that is concluding murder, racism, genocide, discrimination etc. etc

The Europeans earned the title EUROPIGS rightfully. Most of the Humanityג€™s suffer in the past 2000 years came from Europe and by Europeans. I feel righteous to generalize on Europe.

Both cockroaches are sitting somewhere in Europe surrounded by the murderous Europigs and trying to teach us humanity matters.

Blimey and John V. it should take another 2000 for somebody like you, asking for God forgiveness to be righteous enough to talk with Jews and Israelis in the same eye level. Until then… Shut the F.. up.

To the Israelis and Jewish responders to these two anti-Semitic cockroaches, do not bother.

I do not know about you but I do know about me…

I am a proud Jew
I am a proud Israeli.
I am proud of the right to serve with the IDF
I am proud of fighting the survival wars of Israel 1967, 1973, 1982
I am appreciating much the IDF activity of defending the people of Israel these days

It is not a shame to fight for your survival, for me it is a source for a pride, w should not be apologetic for fighting our survival.

Ignore the side noises of the racists, anti-Semitics, Jews haters Blimey and John V..

We will proceed and fight for our survival. We will make peace one day with the Palestinians; we will live side by side with the Palestinians. We will make all that without the evil “Support” of those genocide and murderers: the Europigs.

We will do all that despite of those peace destroyers like these two Cockroaches and their racist gangs.

We will extend our hand for the true balanced, peace promoters in Europe after they have got ride of evil and racist elements like these two.

Usually I am for talking, dialog and understanding. But here we should wake for the reality. Those two are hopeless and actually not that important to spend a valuable time on.

We the Israelis are having much more important things then to deal with these two cockroaches, letג€™s the exterminators take care of them.

Is it wrong to hate and deny any advice and opinion of your nationג€™s murderers? NO, I DO NOT THINK SO !!

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The Europeans earned the title EUROPIGS right Hebrew
by Blimey 2:17am Thu Aug 21 '03

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"That kind of hatred is so hot that is capable of
igniting again the terrible ovens our ancestors
were burned in"

Funny how its your post that is seething with
hatred and racism, isn't it?

Twat.

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