We expected it - which doesn't make it less horrible by Adam Keller 9:54pm Sun Dec 2 '01 address: pob 3322, Tel-Aviv 61033 phone: 03-5565804 [email protected] Also on such a day, especially on such a day, one must reiterate that it is the occupation which is the root cause, that the cycle of bloodshed cannot be broken without an end to the occupation, or at least a clearly visible step in that direction. print article GUSH SHALOM - pob 3322, Tel-Aviv 61033 - http://www.gush-shalom.org/ We expected it - which doesn't make it less horrifying. The interpretations of who started the 14 months-old round of ever more violence differ: was it the Palestinian stone throwers in Temple Mount the day after the unwanted visitor in September 2000, or was it the overreaction by Israeli sharpshooters which set into working the chain reaction from stones to bullets to bombs. But about one thing all can agree: every new round of blunt aggression is more cynical and blind. Ten innocent Israeli youngsters being killed in a Hamas suicide attack in Jerusalem won't increase Israeli sensitivity towards the innocent death of five Palestinian children who walked into a boobytrap placed by the army on their way to school at the Khan Yunes Reffugee Camp. And 15 innocent bus passengers in Haifa, blown to death in another horrid explosion, don't open the eyes of Israelis for the fact that by killing Hamas leader Mahmoud Abu-Hunud a week ago, our army was actually putting an end to a tacit understanding between Arafat and Hamas, which had prevented this kind of suicide bombing over the past few months. (The possible implications of assassinating Abu Hunud were quite frankly discussed in the media just a week ago, but the size of today's horror seems to have caused in our society a sort of collective amnesia.) As we just heard, as an immediate step of retaliation all Palestinian inhabitants of the West Bank are now expressly forbidden to use the roads - the logical culmination of travel restrictions which became increasingly tight over the past year. Collective punishment of a whole people. Millions of people are to be completely imprisoned in their town or village, with going to the next community becoming a criminal offence - an offence which, as enforced by soldiers, may come in daily practice to be punishable by death. Further harsh measures are expected as soon as Sharon gets back from the US. Will any of these increase Palestinian sensitivity to Israeli pain? Will it deter the next suicide bomber and the one after? Or will it make even more young Palestinians destitute and angry and desperate enough to take up the explosive belts proffered by Hamas? Meanwhile, what does an Israeli peace activist do on such a day? You watch the non-stop emergency broadcasts on both channels of Israeli TV, the terrible scenery, the all too predictable reactions of politicians - until you get sick and tired and turn it off. You find an excuse to phone to friends or family members which you know to be living near the place where the latest outrage happened. And you reiterate - also on such a day, especially on such a day - that it is the occupation which is the root cause, that the cycle of bloodshed cannot be broken without an end to the occupation, or at least a clearly visible step in that direction. Adam Keller Tel-Aviv, December 2, 2001 www.gush-shalom.org/ add your comments

Adam is crazy by Adam is Crazy 12:45am Mon Dec 3 '01 print comment Only Adam Keller could write an article somehow defending this Palestinian extermination of the Jews. Only Adam Keller and Gush Shalom are to stupid to see, the Palestinians want to butcher all Jews and slaughter the state of Israel. Adam is to stupid to know, Ehud Barak offered everything to the Palestinians, even though there was never any state called Palestine governed by Palestinians. Why is it Adam, when Palestinians are commiting a Holocaust against Israeli civilians, you try to defend this. Let me remind you of some history. The Palestinians tried this same tactic of killing and terror against King Hussein in 1970. Unlike Israel, Hussein used massive force to stop Palestinian terror. Then you mention these 5 Palestinians killed. Israel planted a landmind in the exact area, where Palestinian gunman were killing and murdering Jews, it was not intended to kill any Pal civilians. When it did kill Pal go to Israeli civlian areas, to exterminate hundreds of Jewish teenagers is sick beyond belive. Israel does not target civlians, the Palestinians only target and massacre Israeli civlians. You know, i was speaking to Harry Truman's grandson. His name is Clifton. He's a teacher at a school in Chicago. He told me, Israel is to soft and doesn't understand what it takes to stop suicide bombers. He is so right. If only Israel had Harry Truman as its leader. He would show the only way to stop Palestinian terrorism. add your comments

Mike by Mike 12:59am Mon Dec 3 '01 print comment Those 5 Palestinians were not DELIBERATELY targeted, like the poor Israeli kids the Palestinian animals have blown up or shot through the heads with snipers' bullets. And if the Palestinians weren't deliberately laying their own bombs and mines and roadsides near Jewish enclaves, there would be no need for Israel to lay mines to stop these Palestinian muderers. add your comments

antisemitism by abisag 1:16am Mon Dec 3 '01 print comment I don't think that the occupation is the root cause. The root cause is antisemitism. There are few palestinians (of course there are some!) which really wnat peace with Jews and Israel. add your comments

ARABS ARE SEMITES TOO by REACTION 7:35am Mon Dec 3 '01 print comment Does it really matter what the cause of this mess is at this point? How many more people are we going to loose on both sides before we start earnestly looking for a solution? Judging from Israel's past I recon hundreds if not thousands. This hypothesis is based on past wars, but also Israel's astronomical car related death toll, healthcare conditions, education, drug laws, etc. for which Israel's (and Palestine's) tolerance grows as the now permanent 'situation' worsens. add your comments

REACTION=RIDICULOUS by Coby 10:01am Mon Dec 3 '01 print comment REACTION- The best word I can think of to describe your post is ridiculous. You say that "judging from Israel's past," you think that the current situation will go on for hundreds and maybe thousands of years. You (humerousl!) say that your "hypothesis is based on past wars, but also Israel's astronomical car related death toll, healthcare conditions, education, drug laws, etc. for which Israel's (and Palestine's) tolerance grows as the now permanent 'situation' worsens." First of all, please do not use the word 'hypothesis.' The word implies a certain level of logical reasoning that is missing from your post. Second, helthcare in Israel is universal (unlike the U.S.)and Israel, through its research at universities and hospitals like Haddasah in Jerusalem, has been at the forefront of advancement in medicine. Israel also has universal education and an extremely high rate of literacy. Even though I am not familiar with Israel's drug laws, I can say that they are probably just about the same or better than the laws most countries in the world. And lastly, what I find most laughable is how you try to use bad driving by Israelis to prove some point about the Arab-Israeli conflict! Better luck next time... add your comments

To Abisag by David James Vickery 1:41pm Mon Dec 3 '01 address: NABLUS, IN PALESTINE [email protected] print comment You say: "I don't think that the occupation is the root cause." Sorry, as Adam said, "The occupation IS the root cause". Abisag, do you have even the slightest idea of what all is included in the "occupation" of the West Bank and Gaza Strip? Have you ever walked through Qalandia checkpoint,(near Ramallah) and seen the misery that so many people are subjected to daily? Can you imagine a young mother forced to go on foot between Boreen and Tell (near Nablus) with two young children, carrying packages, in the mud, because it's raining? You say: "The root cause is antisemitism." Ask yourself just what may be the root cause OF antisemitism. What is it about you, that makes so many people dislike you? You say: "There are few Palestinians (of course there are some!) which really wnat peace with Jews and Israel." All Palestinians want PEACE! What makes you just assume that Israel and Israelis have a right to be here. You're damn luck you have a state of Israel, since it was created on stolen land. Stop your constant expansion, get out of Palestine, and watch resistance activity evaporate. Simple. But maybe not simple enough for you. What these people WILL HAVE is their own state of "Palestine" in the West Bank, and the Gaza Strip, with its capital in East Jerusalem. It's not too much to demand. They want an end to the constant tension. They want to work and to feed their families. They want their businesses to thrive once again. And if Israelis can be trusted, maybe Palestine will agree to trade agreements with Israel. And you, sir, should be grateful that they no longer wish to push you into the sea. All the best, David/Dhoud in Nablus, PALESTINE add your comments

x by x 4:01pm Mon Dec 3 '01 print comment x x add your comments

not totally true by abisag 4:02pm Mon Dec 3 '01 print comment "Abisag, do you have even the slightest idea of what all is included in the "occupation" of the West Bank and Gaza Strip?" Yes, I have. "Have you ever walked through Qalandia checkpoint,(near Ramallah) and seen the misery that so many people are subjected to daily? Can you imagine a young mother forced to go on foot between Boreen and Tell (near Nablus) with two young children, carrying packages, in the mud, because it's raining?" Excuse my kind of jokes: Walking in the mud is the cause for bombing in jerusalem? "You say: "The root cause is antisemitism." Ask yourself just what may be the root cause OF antisemitism. What is it about you, that makes so many people dislike you? " You mean "The cause for antisemitims is the behaviour of jews"? Do you mean that? really? "You say: "There are few Palestinians (of course there are some!) which really wnat peace with Jews and Israel." All Palestinians want PEACE!" Sorry, but that is not true. The Hamas wants peace? Maybe peace without jews. The Islamic Djihad wants Peace? After killing all jews, maybe. What makes you just assume that Israel and Israelis have a right to be here." When you want to assume that Israel has no right to be here (where?), we must not argue. "You're damn luck you have a state of Israel, since it was created on stolen land. Stop your constant expansion, get out of Palestine, and watch resistance activity evaporate. Simple. But maybe not simple enough for you. Hm, the first war, israel had to fight was the war against six arabic countries (Transjordan, Libanon, Egypt, Syria, Iraque and Saudy-Arabia) which was a defense against arabic agression. The Story about "Israel created on stolen Land" is the favoured story of Antisemitists around the world. "They want an end to the constant tension. They want to work and to feed their families. They want their businesses to thrive once again. And if Israelis can be trusted, maybe Palestine will agree to trade agreements with Israel. And you, sir, should be grateful that they no longer wish to push you into the sea." Why sir? Abisag was the wife of King David, you know? And: If we could trust Arafat and the PA, and if we could beliefe, that you wish not to push us into the sea, Palestinians may get there own country. Hamas should stop killing first. Israel should stop killing either. But in this moment, Zinni is here, Palestinians and Israelis should talk, not bomb. Shalom, abisag add your comments

I appreciate your point of view. by Matthew Bradley 5:12pm Mon Dec 3 '01 [email protected] print comment Adam, I would like to thank you for your article. The news coverage of the suicide bombings here in the States has been extensive. As always, Palestinian deaths have been given the barest of coverage. I thank you for arguing that all human life is valuable. I am a member of a Native American community. We are long accustomed to history books that portray Natives dying in "battles" with Euro-Americans, while Euro-Americans died in "massacres" committed by Native Americans. Thank you for doing your part in your country to pointing out that when a person is suffering or dead, his or her ethnic, religious, or racial identification makes no difference. add your comments

occupation? by yisrael 6:53pm Mon Dec 3 '01 print comment Yes, the root cause is the occupation, the arab occupation of Israel and organizations like you who are a minority with big mouths and funding from so called humanitarian organizations. Your days are numbered. O' thou palestina, thou art destroyed. add your comments

where is "slom hagalil" by moses 7:03pm Mon Dec 3 '01 [email protected] print comment I am a greek/jew. I was a student in 1982 in Israel, when most israelis embrace the war of the few days, as then thought, the war of Lebanon, which supposed to solve the problem with the palestinians(Sharon was the defende ministry remember?). After about 2000 soldiers dead, thousands civilians dead israelis and palestinians and a lot of money wasted-remember the "slom hagalil tax", did the war brought any solution? Life is nice for all, palestinians and israelis, jews and arabs, how pitty all this dead in this and other past, present and future wars, who they will not to live to see the end of this silly conflict, as the french and other power nations did in the past. Did any war brought any solution in the past? How much more blood we the jews need to understand that for the antisemitism, they are not the palestinians to blame(they never did progroms, they never expressed hate like many americans, europeans and others), even in their struggle they use hard and sometimes unjusty words, for us the jews. add your comments

Root Causes and Sad Realities by A. Rosenfeld 7:04pm Mon Dec 3 '01 print comment The author claims that: "it is the occupation that is the root cause" of the cycle of violence. To talk of a single "root cause" of the Palistinian/Israeli conflict is, I think, both simple minded and, for the author, coming from a place of apolegetical guilt. I don't argue that Israel is a parnter in blame for the cycle of bloodshed, and while I also feel, from a historical and ethical point of view, the Palestinians deserve their own country and rights to self determination, I also feel that the current Palestinian leadership is NOT and HAS NEVER been a partner in peace. I also feel (and I admit I'm saddened by my own pessimism) that, even if Israel ends the occupation and the settlements (a word I hesitate to use because of the political baggage associated with it) are abandoned and a Palestinian state is created--THERE WOULD BE NO END TO THE SUICIDE BOMBINGS. The author and many other well intentioned people fail to realize that many Palestinains and the nations that support terrorism against Israel won't stop their attacks until, God forbid, Israel is destroyed. Like many others, I don't know the right way to an end to the cycle of violence and a gaining of mutual respect. I do think, however, the author is being dishonest with his own feelings of perceived guilt, and how best to deal with them, and the legitimate sufferings of the Palestinian and Israeli peoples. add your comments

Remember Israel is a US regime yisrael by koat 8:59pm Mon Dec 3 '01 print comment Israel is a failed experiment in pity by the western world for their former anti-Semite ways. I cannot imagine that Israel will be around in 50 years at the rate they are going. Does not the average Israeli know the amount of sorrow that festers to anger around them is caused by their government's barbaric policies? You can not stem the loss of blood from a wound by inflicting much the same on others. Is the Israeli media spoon fed lies, misinformation, and propaganda or are they more than the mouthpiece? Doubtless this increase in retaliatory violence will cause more pain and suffering for both peoples. Are the masochists, the government of Israeli; bent on extracting power from the rage of its citizenry to the point where they are left without opposition to the most inhuman of acts? Don't expect the United States to bail your ass out forever because frankly the US is increasingly growing tired of you. Even my Jewish colleagues and friends are appalled by Israel's relentless acts of unmitigated terror. Killing children in retaliation for acts by independent agents of a revolutionary group you helped foster by your arrogance, what next; the sterilization and forced abortion of Palestinians? This is not the old testament stop acting like it. If you don't think that they are than you are being foolish with your hope and blind faith in your superiority. Zionism = Racism and more and more of the world and the US sees that fact. The response will be less dollars flowing into your illegitimate government of child killers, weakling liberals and those numbed down to meaningless/mindless yes men. Just because it looks like a democracy does not mean that the people it is composed of act of their will in proxy for the people's will (unless Israel is inhabited solely by blood thirsty cowards). Their own agendas, pride, and crimes only sound true in the ringing Dis-passion for peace within. Any country besides Israel with its brutish and careless ways would be so alienated from the "westerninized" world that it would be nothing more significant than the people it hates so much, the people of Palestine. Not that the people of Palestine are not significant but they would not even be acknowledged in the US newspapers in any important way unless Israel was killing them. The US is a selfish country that does not care much for other cultures as it is absorbed more or less completely on the dynamic marketing driven fallacy of its own. It will be a great day when any people treated like the Palestinians are not only grudgingly given equal status to the Israeli Jew or the United States Christian but are unfailingly guaranteed the same rights and privileges of them. This coming from an atheist. Who would of thought that the Jewish people so trampled on throughout time by others would be so callous as to inflict much the same unto others. Shame, Shame Israel have you no shame? rant Georgie Bush will not get a 2nd Term just like his father, somebody with better sense for the International Stage of Diplomacy will pry start weaning you off the US military fatback you've grown accustomed to sooner than latter. Yes, fatback is in fact pork thats an insult, fuck you. I'm not an anti-Semite as you might imagine but I am anti-Zionist and as any organized military in the world is only there to ensure political and economic power to the few so the whole Israeli Army can go shove some of that military fatback I mentioned earlier like guns, bombs, rockets, and planes right up their ass. /rant www.anarchsforlife.org add your comments

mister keller is wrong by arthur 9:30pm Mon Dec 3 '01 print comment Mister Keller is unfortunately somewhat naive. Yes occupation and economic misery can make people angry, but why do only Muslims (and ok Tamils in Sri Lanka) (ab)use suicide bombers? Gush Shalom is a frustrated group of people who lost their sense of reality and should therefore be very concerned, that instead of trying to be the forerunners of their people they will become traitors. If they indeed intend to convince their own people to give up the settlements, they better change their strategies, i.e. demanding that the Palestinians also delivir their part of the deal instead of covering up all the responsabilities of the Palestinians. I never have heard of Catholic rebels in Latin-America blowing up buses with rich schoolchildren during the civil wars in the 70s and 80s. Blowing up civilians is against every religion and no misery can condone this behaviour or should even explain this behaviour. If Palestine is ever to become a democracy, then Gush Shalom and B'tselem should demand the same respect for human life from the Palestinians as from the Israeli's. Otherwise these groups will not only lose all respect within their own communities, but they are also paternalistic towards the Arabs as they do not entrust them to have any democratic values. Ocupation is ocupation, but the reason for this was the state of war the Arabs imposed (and are still imposing) on Israel. Stop the violence and the Israeli public will be much more inclined to make compromises. add your comments

mister keller is wrong by arthur 9:30pm Mon Dec 3 '01 print comment Mister Keller is unfortunately somewhat naive. Yes occupation and economic misery can make people angry, but why do only Muslims (and ok Tamils in Sri Lanka) (ab)use suicide bombers? Gush Shalom is a frustrated group of people who lost their sense of reality and should therefore be very concerned, that instead of trying to be the forerunners of their people they will become traitors. If they indeed intend to convince their own people to give up the settlements, they better change their strategies, i.e. demanding that the Palestinians also delivir their part of the deal instead of covering up all the responsabilities of the Palestinians. I never have heard of Catholic rebels in Latin-America blowing up buses with rich schoolchildren during the civil wars in the 70s and 80s. Blowing up civilians is against every religion and no misery can condone this behaviour or should even explain this behaviour. If Palestine is ever to become a democracy, then Gush Shalom and B'tselem should demand the same respect for human life from the Palestinians as from the Israeli's. Otherwise these groups will not only lose all respect within their own communities, but they are also paternalistic towards the Arabs as they do not entrust them to have any democratic values. Ocupation is ocupation, but the reason for this was the state of war the Arabs imposed (and are still imposing) on Israel. Stop the violence and the Israeli public will be much more inclined to make compromises. add your comments

arthur you are forgetting much by koat 10:14pm Mon Dec 3 '01 print comment http://www.viceland.com/issues/v8n9/htdocs/the_vice_guide.html to not have to repeat well reasoned and succinct arguments. per example from page i1953 - Jacobo Arbenz also had to go. The progressive democratically elected president is also talking that crazy talk - you know, land reform, civil liberties, nationalizing the Washington-connected United Fruit Company. The CIA organizes a massive disinformation campaign and coup. Next up: 40 years of bad, bad things you don’t even want to think about – American-trained death squads, torture, disappearances, mass executions. Victims: 100 000./i Isreal is the butcher here, propped up by american policy to do what it has to create the percieved need for american involvement in the region. Rogue states are the worst kind of murderers as they are difficult to bring in line with any acceptable time frame or body count. Wait till there is no more need for oil in the region and Israel will fall victim to the crimes it has commited just like every other bloody regime. www.anarchsforlife.org add your comments

@koat by abisag 2:15am Tue Dec 4 '01 print comment My dear koat, you are so deluded! Shalom - Salam abisag add your comments

deluded!, haha by koat 3:19am Tue Dec 4 '01 print comment Why, you have given no argument to supplament such an accusation. Ignored for the moment, till a response formed however succinctly demonstrates otherwise. www.anarchsforlife.org add your comments

To Rosenfeld: u r mistaken by Guevara 3:56am Tue Dec 4 '01 print comment Your totally mistaken in the idea that suicidal attacks will not stop after a fair peace agreement. Hamas is a new phenomenum in the palestinian history and it remains reactionary. It is strengthened by poor acheivments from the peace process: most of the lands controlled by israel, water is control by israel, borders, streets, imports, exports, 2500 palestinian were left in israeli jails for slow death in the darkness of solitary confinements ( one of them spent 3.5 years in such conditions, don't try to justify it, if they want him dead then it's more moral to just execute him). The list goes on and on. Besides, palestinians have experienced there dream of "Free" independent state been swallowed by expanding israeli settlements. Also, the palestinian authority has been corrupt inherent of a power that represents the rich in israeli and palestinian areas. And the story remained the same: an israeli soldier can shoot u, blow the hell out of u to have fun just because u are a palestinian. Don't u think that it's an ideal environment for reactionary fundimentalist to flourish. Nevertheless, a fair agreement will weaken hamas so much and most palestinian will shift to the left and middle. Then it'll be very easy to deal with hamas, and we will do whatever it takes to silence them even by force. add your comments

Yo, Abisag by David James Vickery 2:24pm Tue Dec 4 '01 address: NABLUS, IN PALESTINE [email protected] print comment Abisag, Indymedia Israel is not a chat room. If you would like to communicate with me please use my e-mail address: [email protected] Peace, David/Dhoud add your comments

eye for an eye isn't justice by Stephane Thellen 8:10pm Tue Dec 4 '01 [email protected] print comment I'm please to have echoes of this conflict. From Canada, theres things that doesn't seem clear. Well for my part. Do I really have to say that i'm against murder ? Of course, or else I would'nt even bother to read and informe my self. Terrorism is studip, but it exist and may be we could at least try to explain it (because we can t justify it). I'm sure my comment won't be appreciated but for where I stand, I do think that in a way, the Israeli is partly responsable. Not guilty but responsable, Lets face it, colonisation is as ugly as terrorism. "The author and many other well intentioned people fail to realize that many Palestinains and the nations that support terrorism against Israel won't stop their attacks until, God forbid, Israel is destroyed". For sure. But that's just a bad reason to perpetrate war and crimes againts palestinians and other arabs. How can we just think a moment that the only way to stop terrorism is to destroy populations ? If we can't see the political issues behind this war, we will always fall in the demonological thinking of the leaders. If israeli people were that kind, that they did prefer justice to war, then colonization would stop at first ! Then, if terrorism really continues, we would have a good reason and the legitimacy to make terrorism end. Same for the "empire state of americas" who hypocritically, denonce terrorism while they sell a logique of mortification to the whole planet. But I must be to far to "well intentioned" Stephane add your comments

Root Cause; Sad Realities by Jim D 10:56pm Fri Dec 21 '01 [email protected] print comment A. Rosenfeld. Unfortunately and sadly, I agree with your assesment. I have asked the question many times; " What will it take to satisfy both the Jewish and Palestinians in this never ending conflict". I believe my children and grandchildren will be asking the same question. Unless, the unthinkable happens and that would be those who resettle this area when the radiation has cleared in 300-400 years have learned how to co-exist in a very small world. How sad. add your comments

these discussions will not bring us anywhere by arthur 6:48pm Tue Jan 8 '02 print comment mister van de straaten is really an ignorant crapper. most jews are not jews and judaism is a religion, simply crap do your homework boy. our friend who stated so bravely i do remember 1982 in beirut remembers also that they were the cause of the lebanese civil war and by attacking israel caused israel to invade lebanon to get ride of that independent terror state run by arafat. palestinians are called that way because of the use of the word palestine by the british, if they would have called it timbukto they would have been timbuktoans. they are simply there and we will have to live together. however christians, muslims and jews are sure of one thing and that is that god promised us judea and samaria. judeans = jews. in spite of our strong roots with judea and samaria we are prepared to sacrifice this for a peace, but our arab brothers and sisters up till now have to prove that they are really truly ready for peace. so van straaten do your home work boy and gentile choose another name as it is a bit pityful to call yourself non-jew. add your comments